face to face

What does it mean to say one communes "Face to Face" with YHVH? Many people who lack spiritual understanding express the claim that the bible contradicts itself when it says no man has seen God "face to face" and then it describes some seeing (talking with) him "face to face.
- Jn.1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.(Ex.23:23)
- Ex.33:(vs.11) And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. (Jn.15:15) And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. (Deut.34:10)
To say one communes with one "face to face" isnt spacifically intended to be taken in the literal (phy) sense. Here in vs.11 the terminology is a Hebraism which means a close relation (1 on 1), direct communication/ communion as the verse emphasises with "as a man speaketh unto his friend". This is Not the same (Literal) sense as in:
- (Vs. 20) And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
(Christians: Note the ROCK in Ex.33:21-23 that made it possible for Moses to enter into such a close relation with YHVH).
Here in Ex. 33:20 we are basically told that phy. man can not phy. see Hashem while in the flesh. This is a more Literal sense of "face to face".

- Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (Gen.16:13)
We know this one that Jacob (and Hagar) are reffering to is the Angel of The LORD. This verse relates back to Gen.16:9; (32:24). / Note Gen.32:30 "G-d" (not G-D or LORD) is translation from Elohim and NOT Y.H.V.H. and this is clearly the Angel of the Lord with further conformation in vs.14 "Man" (eesh)

For the Spiritual to interact with the Phy in a Phy way a vehicle is used. (example: flesh is the vehicle our spirits use to interact with the phy. in a phy. way.) We are made in the same image (Likeness) as the angels. Gen. describes These angels as eating phy. food and it sustaining them and Gen. also mentions man (Israel) partaking of angels food in the wilderness.
The Angel of The LORD is Mashiach (Messiah) prior to phy. birth. Mashiach is known as the right hand (Power and works) of YHVH (in realtion to creation/ phy realm) and also called Adon which is LORD as IN the earth. We are told you see the Father in ones works/ word/ fruits. If one can comprehend Jn.12:44-45 in truth he would know the hebraism used in the Torah.
- Jn. 12:44-45 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me
- Jn.14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? (In this passage Yeshua/Jesus is speaking of his fruits/ works/ word being that of the Father/ Emmanuel) Jn.5:36/ Heb.1:1-4/... The flesh man is differ than the born again Jn.5:37-47! (slumber)/ (1 Tim.3:16 / 1 Cor.12:3)

Abraham (Gen.17,18 &19)also came into direct contact with The angel of The LORD. These beings are described as "angels"/"men"/ and one is called "the LORD". (Gen.17:1 / Gen.18:1 "The LORD"/ Gen.18:2 "three men"/ Gen.18:3 "My Lord"/ Gen.18:13 "the LORD"/ vs.14 "the LORD"/ vs.16 "men"/ vs.20 "the LORD"/ vs.22"men" / vs.33 "the LORD"/ Gen.19:1 "two angels" Two of the ones reffered to as men are now called angels.) Melchizedek


- Ex.24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw (H#2372) God (Elohim/ #430) , and did eat and drink.(vs.8 blood of the covenant Heb.9:20) Hebrew - chazah- #2372- A primative root; to gaze at; mentally to percieve, contemplate (with pleasure); specifically to have a vision of- behold, look, prophacy, provide, see./ Rather than the other Hebrew word which also is translated to see/ or "saw": #7200- raah- prim. root to see, literal or figurative in numerouse applications,....

- Job.42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Compare to Job.42:3 / Shama- hear and observe (understanding). Heb.11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Biblical faith consists of evidence which is the same thing Job is sharing. He expressed that he had been told of G-d but now his eye (H# 5869 ahyin- literally OR FIGURATIVELY - by affliction, outward appearance, favor, perception, .... ) (H #7200- raah- literally or Figuratively- approve, behold, Have Experience, take heed, reguard, ......

Who has seen God? Who has a relationship (Is one) with God?
Judges 13:22 (Samson's parents saw God)
Ex.24:9-11 (Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and 70 elders of Israel)
Ex.6:3 (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)
Jn.12/14 (the disciples)
Rev.1 (John)
What phy. man has been in has been in contact with YHVH defacto? None, the closest one was Moses but even then it was made possible by Mashiach.

Suggested material:
Monothiestic

Angel worship

NOTEs Angel Worship

We are not to worship angels (spiritual/ messengers) .
Gal.1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Colossians 2:18 (King James Version)

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Revelation 22:8-9 (King James Version)

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

All credit goes to the Almighty.We are lead by the Holy spirit.
Romans 8:38-39 (King James Version)

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Cor.11:14
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Note: Gen.19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground

Angels being messengers, we can be thankful for the message (Of YHVH) but may it remain aimed unto the Father. Lot was at "the gate" and this is to mention head of (seat of judgement:vs.9, 23:10,18; 34:20,24, Ruth 4:1) so he greeted them as his guests as to show respect (social greeting) and service to for he recognized them as angels of God.
Hebrews 13:2
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Zacharias murmored against an angel of God thus murmoring against God, As Israel did with Moses (YHVH) in the wildreness

Free Will?
To any that claim angels dont have free will:
Angel's as in messengers have current agendas when bringing forth a message, and that is where their alligance is. As to the spiritual hosts of heavens that are these messengers Yes, we have mention of angels being presented with choices throughout the scriptures and based on their choices they have either choosen to be intune with the will of G-d or to be in rebellion to His will (Gen.3:14, Matt.25:41, Jude1:6, Rev.12:4-9, Ps.103:20-21, Is.14(:14), Gen.6:2, Gen.19:1-3,...(Dan.10:13)...)
We have the concept of the choice suppiled to the spirits of heaven and earth with the model of the ark of the covenant. IF you understand who the two are that cover/preserve/gaurd the mercy seat (postion of Mashiach/the Word), then you may comprehend when you hear we are told that one of them in this high postion gave life to wickedness from Within (his pride). He being in the postion he was ("perfect") he had Great comprehension of the Word he easily then aquired this postion in perversion thereof. Once he became full of himself (having a patent of the knowledge of good and evil) He presented this ideology to the hosts of heaven and mankind. Everywhere predestination is mentioned in the Word the Elect are the subject! -I believe- this is cause they have demonstrated their alligance to Reverance of G-d in Spirit and truth prior to their physical entry. Do with it what you will

 

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